*Concerns of Young Mathematicians* Volume 1 Issue 11 September 15, 1993 An electronically distributed digest for discussions of the issues of concern to mathematicians at the beginning of their careers. PLEASE FORWARD TO ANY POTENTIALLY INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS Please, direct submissions and questions to Edward Aboufadel aboufade@scus1.ctstateu.edu , editor for the month of September. Next issue: Wednesday, September 22 Editor for October: Curtis Bennett cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu Editor for November: Steve Kennedy kennedy@math.stolaf.edu To subscribe: Send mail to Charles Yeomans at cyeomans@ms.uky.edu Back issues and other information are available via anonymous FTP to ftp.ms.uky.edu, in pub3/mailing.lists/ymn-list. Editor for the month of July was Mark Winstead (mww8f@virginia.edu). Editor for the month of August was Kalin Godev (kalin@math.psu.edu). Publication will be weekly for now, and increase when appropriate. A good guess would be biweekly by late September. Table of Contents Item # Title ------ ----- 1 EDitorial 2 News and notes 3 John McKay: One position or two? 4 Catherine Roberts: The view from an employer 5 Daniel Lieman: Several recent comments on one-year positions 6 Curtis Bennett: A 2nd call for NSF Postdoc proposals 7 Cary Timar: Employment register database 8 Stephen Kennedy: Reply to A. Crannell (CoYM 10- Item 4) 9 The Chalk Talk Room: Applying for jobs from Sweden _______________________________________________________________ Item #1 EDitorial: Is the PhD an end or a beginning? While teaching undergraduates, I wonder what connection there is between what I am trying to teach and what their careers will be like after they earn their bachelor's degree. What parts of numerical analysis, for instance, will impact their later work? It seems to me that students earn their BS in Mathematics, and then go on to many different things, from graduate school, to actuarial work, to business, or to other careers that I honestly know little about. How many of these people look back in anger or frustration at their college careers, with thoughts like, "They should have taught me Mathematica"? I think the dynamic is different in graduate school, though. Correct or not, graduate school is seen as an apprenticeship for professors-in-training, and there is a sense that graduate school is suppose to prepare us to be mathematics professors. But graduate programs can be rather two-faced about all of this. On the one hand, we, the graduate students, are junior faculty. On the other hand, we are students. As junior faculty, the transition from pre- to postdoc should be smooth. Yet as students, we find that it is not. Some of us find we don't have the teaching experience or training we need. Some of us find we haven't learned enough about how research is practiced. These ideas slide into the neighborhood of the Garfunkel/MacLane debates in this Summer's Notices that I chose to wax sarcastic on last month. Are graduate schools meant to train us, to educate us, or both? Those who say "to train" would call us junior faculty, and would say, rightly I think, that many programs are not doing a good enough job. Those who say "to educate" would call us students. My thinking is incomplete on this, and I would like to hear what others have to say. Edward Aboufadel Southern Connecticut State University _______________________________________________________________ Item #2 News and Notes Charles Yeomans reports that on 8/26/93 we had 327 "paid" subscribers. As of 9/7/93, there were 366 "paid" subscribers. This week, we are approaching 400. Also, we have set up a new way to send out the newsletter, which should cure the problem with Emacs and Rmail. Also, our archive site has been changed -- see the header above. I received zero responses from my call last week to write a short document called "The Perfect Rejection Letter" to be distributed in Cincinnati. So, let me ask again -- is there anyone interested in joining me to create this paper? We would work via email during the Fall and have something ready by January. If you are interested, send email to aboufade@scus1.ctstateu.edu. Harriet Lord brought to my attention the National Association of Mathematicians (NAM). Harriet writes: "NAM is primarily concerned with issues related to the Historically Black Institutions, and also with minority participation in Mathematics." I plan on letting the editor of their Newsletter know that we exist. If you want to contact her for any reason, her address is: Dr. Loretta M. Braxton P.O. Box 9068 Virginia State University Petersburg, VA 23803 (no email address was given to me) --Ed. _______________________________________________________________ Item #3 John McKay: One position or two? [Note: This posting was sent as a response to the posting of CYM #10 on the newsgroup sci.math. -- Ed.] I am a senior person in Math and CS in a university environment and ask a question concerning post-doctoral salaries: Which is preferable -- to provide a single position at say $36K for a new Ph.D. or to provide two at 1/2 the salary ($18K,say)? John McKay mckay@alcor.concordia.ca _______________________________________________________________ Item #4 Catherine Roberts: The view from an employer This is my second year in a tenure track assistant professor position at the University of Rhode Island. During my first year here, our department conducted a job search so I was able to participate from "the other side". There are key items we looked for in the cover letter -- the most important being the primary research interest. This is how we separated applicants into the appropriate piles for further review. I wouldn't be surprised if some applications were misfiled because the sorter wasn't sure of the primary research interest. Including a sentence that says something along the lines of "My primary research interest is nonlinear Volterra integral equations, which is a topic in the wider category of applied mathematics," can really help. Also, if you are out of the country, make it clear in your cover letter when and how you would be available for an interview (I saw one of my favorite candidates who was applying from overseas almost be discarded because my university didn't have the money to bring in someone from Europe -- because I knew that she was planning to come to the states in Februray and that we'd only have to fly her in from Chicago, she stayed on our short list). There was a desire to find candidates who spoke English fairly well, so if there is a way to communicate this skill on your resume, I'd include it. This past January I was an interviewer at the Employment Register. The most memorable candidates came prepared with resumes and had something interesting (and not "canned") to say about their research, about teaching, and about their future goals. I know that sounds lame ... but being articulate and organized made a difference. If you are interested in a job -- COMMUNICATE your interest! When I was a candidate interviewing, I was often asked about my interests in the Calculus reform movement. People want to know if candidates are aware of and inclined to get involved with technology instruction or new teaching trends. One anecdote. I interviewed someone at the Employment Register who we were quite interested in. He acted, frankly, unenthused about the job at URI. He didn't seem open to relocating to New England, he didn't have much to say and wasn't well prepared. When I saw him a few hours later and said "hello", his blank look revealed that he didn't remember who I was. He was, in fact, incredibly well qualified and someone my deparment was very interested in. Because his interview gave me the impression that he had "better" job prospects in the works and wasn't interested in us, on my recommendation we stopped considering him as a candidate. He contacted me a couple months later saying that he didn't have anything in the works and he hoped he was still being considered -- but by that time it was too late. I don't think I am exaggerating to claim that this candidate would have gotten an offer from us, and I feel lousy about the miscommunication at this interview. My suggestions? Be honest about your interests ... but be genuinely open to considering other kinds of jobs. If you say "I only want a research position" than don't expect a school with an interest in teaching to give you a second look. If you really won't relocate to New England, definitely say so ... but if there is a chance you'd consider it, don't shoot yourself in the foot by implying otherwise. And FOLLOW UP on your contacts. If this person had contacted me any time in January or February, his candidacy would have been resurrected and he could possibly have gotten the offer. To finish the story, this candidate found a postdoc ... but because of a hiring freeze here, we won't have another opportunity to consider him for a position at URI. A good fish that got away. Catherine A. Roberts email: roberts@cs.uri.edu Department of Mathematics tel: (401) 792-5595 University of Rhode Island fax: (401) 792-4617 Kingston, RI 02881 _______________________________________________________________ Item #5 Daniel Lieman: Several recent comments on one-year positions I graduated from Brown in '92 (along with Annalisa - our class must hold the record for highest YMN submission rate - we are now at 2/3 of the class submitting articles!), and went from Brown to a postdoc at MSRI. I was not attached to either of the conference topics at MSRI - I was an "area III" postdoc. MSRI is now considering two-year postdocs, for what it's worth; I'd like to comment here on the value of one year postdocs. I'd also like to limit my comments to one year positions intended to be research oriented - or at least, with balanced workloads. The "worst" one-year position I know of was offered to a friend of mine this year: four courses per semester teaching load, at one of the most expensive colleges in the country, paying the grand total of $10,000. But I think one year research positions can be very valuable in building a career. When I graduated, I was offered the MSRI position, and also spoke with several other schools about tenure-track jobs -- none of these schools were willing to defer a job for me to go to MSRI for the year, and so I went to MSRI with nothing lined up after that. There were twenty-to-thirty postdocs at MSRI this past year (including people who came through for only a semester); most had no support lined up the following year. This is definitely a change from years past. The MSRI postdocs did quite well in the job market. Many were offered several good jobs; people ended up at places like Chicago, Stanford, Harvard. But I think this was due to the fact that many of us greatly exploited the extra time we had between our first search and our second one. I wrote two papers that summer after graduate school and in the early fall -- both were accepted before I reapplied. I also got recommendations from some bigwigs -- I think these two factors made a tremendous amount of difference. Of course, one could still write papers in the summer before taking a heavy teaching job, but it really did take a lot of my effort through late September to get the papers out; I couldn't have done that if I had a heavy teaching load. The other strong advantage of a research postdoc is that you then hit that first teaching job in mid-research. Instead of coming in with a finished thesis, and wanting to get some time to write it up, you come in with your thesis finished, broken into papers and published, and new research begun. That's a heck of an advantage. MSRI is concerned that people getting the postdocs don't just prolong their agony for a year. There was concern at the highest levels that the MSRI postdocs really did help people start careers. To the extent that the MSRI directorate could facilitate that, they did. The point is this: some one year jobs are good. Very good. And it's important to continue to distinguish exploitation (whatever the duration) from opportunities, however risky or short-term. Daniel Lieman lieman@math.columbia.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #6 Curtis Bennett: A 2nd call for NSF Postdoc proposals Two issues ago I asked for any computer files containing successful NSF Postdoctoral Fellowship Applications. I inadvertently left my email address off of the notice. I am trying to develop a database containing files of successful NSF postdoctoral proposals to be made available by anonymous ftp. If you have a file containing a successful NSF Postdoc proposal and would not mind it being made available for reading by other people. Please send a copy of the file to cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu Thank you, Curtis Bennett cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #7 Cary Timar: Employment register database I have seen a few suggestions that we need a database of all CV's of job seekers, fitted to standardized forms, to speed up the job matching process. While it is true that we need ways to improve the existing process, the suggested method has a major weakness. Let me illustrate. Like all dissertation writers, I have some research experience. Like many other students, I intend to continue to do research after I receive my PhD. I also have some teaching experience. I also have some real world work experience. Moreover, I have several goals, including improving both my research and my teaching. When a department is trying to fill a position, they receive hundreds of applicants. In general, they can afford to say, "Throw out all the ones who don't mention experience with X." When applying to that department, it is important to mention X on the CV, and prominently. Thus, MSRI is going to be interested in the details of my research history, and plans, and probably cares little about my teaching experience. Podunk Junior College probably wants to know as much as possible about my teaching, and doesn't care whether I ever intend to do any more research. ACME Widget Research may be more interested in knowing that I have real-world work experience. I send different CV's to all these places, emphasizing different aspects. I elaborate on the parts that they are more likely to be interested in, and put those on the first page. (I assume that they won't look past the first page and the cover letter, until they have made the first cut.) I also emphasize those of my goals that I would be able to pursue in that position. Having a single CV on file with the Employment Register would prevent me from explaining that I have several ambitions, but that I realize that I can't pursue all of them at the same time. It would force me to choose between presenting myself as a researcher, a teacher, or an industrial problem-solver. (Well, I can't present myself as the last anyways.) In effect, it would force me to choose which segment of the market I wanted to gamble on. Fence-sitters will be unemployed. -- Cary Timar, ABD, Mathematics Department, Vanderbilt University cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #8 Stephen Kennedy: Reply to A. Crannell (CoYM 10- Item 4) I am quite pleased to have been wrong--that JCEO is listening to young people delights me! However, all the worry about "Special Consultants" and rewriting constitutions seems unnecessary to me. According to the September, 1993 NOTICES (p. 944) the appointments to JCEO of Stanley Benkowski and Ronald Davis expire January 31, 1994. We should ask SAM (SIAM-AMS-MAA) to replace them with young people. Meanwhile, it's wonderful that we have a voice, and an ear, on this committee. I wonder if Annalisa would keep us informed of the deliberations of this committee by posting summaries of their discussions? I would like to respond to two of the statements in her post. She writes: Both as a recent graduate and also as someone with access to "those with power", I'd like to assure Stephen (and every one else out there) that most mathematicians are concerned -- very concerned -- about the job market. I'm not sure I believe this. I can say with certainty that there exists a population of senior mathematicians who have no sympathy at all for our problems. Many of these people survived a terrible job market in the early '70s and refuse to believe that things could be as bad now as they were then. I have talked (and corresponded) with such people. The quote below comes from the editor of the newsletter of one of the professional societies. To put it in context, a colleague and I submitted a Letter to the Editor of this newsletter about ethical hiring practices. He refused to print it and this quote comes from his justification for that decision. (A modified version of our letter did finally appear in UME TRENDS about eighteen months ago.) `Though everyone sympathized with their plight in the current job market, the situation is not as bad as it was when many of us began our careers, and thus their letter said little new to the department chairs to whom it was "addressed", many (most?) of whom survived on a long series of temporary positions, or periods of unemployment. Which is not to say this makes the present situation either pleasant, or one we should be prepared to allow to continue, in so far as we have any control over the matter.' This is the opinion of at least one member of "those with power". There is still work to be done educating our colleagues to the dimensions of the problem. Annalisa also writes: `So your (our)joining en masse to lament/advertise the plight of new PhD's would add emphasis rather than information to the struggle.' I am quite offended by the word "lament"; the vision of YMN that has unfolded in this newsletter is one of a group committed to: i) supporting each other through trying circumstances, ii) assisting, by providing information to, anyone on the job market, iii) fighting the MYTH that someday soon the long awaited great wave of retirements will come, everything will be better and we'll all have great jobs, and, iv) activism in the cause of lessening the misery of job hunting. We do not intend to sit around moaning Eyeore-like "Oh, woe is me, my life is hard!". Lamentation is not on the agenda. My call for increased membership was not motivated by a desire for more shoulders to cry on, but to get more shoulders to put underneath the burden of achieving i)-iv). Steve Kennedy St. Olaf College kennedy@stolaf.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #9 The Chalk Talk Room: Applying for jobs from Sweden [Note: Last week, Mark Winstead asked for some advice about applying for jobs in the United States while living overseas. Here is a response from Susan Williams williams@mathstat.usouthal.edu . -- Ed.] Mark Winstead's question about applying for jobs from Sweden raises an important concern. My observations over the years lead me to conclude that taking a temporary position overseas is a very dangerous thing for an un-tenured mathematician to do. Many (perhaps most?) schools will not hire a tenure-track person without a face-to-face interview. My school will not even make a one-year offer without an interview, but I think most will -- this is one argument against eliminating such positions entirely. It seems that most mathematicians who take a short-term position abroad end up settling for another short-term position back in the U.S. to use as a stepping stone to a tenure-track job. Incidentally, most decisions regarding what is required to make a job offer -- interviews, official undergraduate transcripts, etc. -- are made in the upper echelons of administration or the university attorney's office, and are depressingly difficult to change. Susan Williams University of South Alabama _______________________________________________________________ End of Journal Next week: The dialogue continues