*Concerns of Young Mathematicians* Volume 1 Issue 18 November 3, 1993 An electronically distributed digest for discussions of the issues of concern to mathematicians at the beginning of their careers. PLEASE FORWARD TO ANY POTENTIALLY INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS Please, direct submissions and questions to Steve Kennedy kennedy@math.stolaf.edu , editor for the month of November. Next issue: Wednesday, November 10 Editor for November: Steve Kennedy kennedy@math.stolaf.edu To subscribe: Send mail to Charles Yeomans at cyeomans@s.ms.uky.edu Back issues and other information are available via anonymous FTP to ftp.ms.uky.edu, in pub3/mailing.lists/ymn-list. Editor for August was Kalin Godev (kalin@math.psu.edu). Editor for September was Ed Aboufadel (aboufade@scus1.ctstateu.edu) Editor for October was Curtis Bennett cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu The opinions expressed herein are those of the contributors and not necessarily those of the YMN or the editorial board. Table of Contents Item # Title ------ ----- 1 Editorial: What is this thing? 2 News and Notes 3A Jim Maxwell: San Antonio Employment Register 3B Curtis Bennett: My experience at the Baltimore Meetings 4A Paul Ehrlich: What to Wear 4B Ruth Gornet: What to Wear II 5 Allyn Jackson: The Death of the Myth? 6 Mickey McDonald: Applying to Liberal Arts Colleges 7 Ivar Stakgold: Hints on Dossier Preparation 8 Mark Winstead: AWM Panel 9 Mark Winstead: Rumors Column 10 Mark Winstead: AMS Study on '90-'91 Ph.D.s 11 Curtis Bennett: Member Survey 12 Mark Winstead: Indiana Ph.D. Survey 13A Chris Leary: Response to Greg Gibson 13B Peter Johnson: Why Official Transcripts? 14 Closing Credits _______________________________________________________________ Item #1 Editorial: What is this thing? One of the first things I notice as I begin my term as editor is that there still exists a fair degree of confusion as to the nature and purpose of this newsletter. I have been asked for "guidelines for contributors" and chastised for publishing false information. By way of introduction, I thought I would outline my vision of what exactly this thing you're reading is, and who we (the YMN) are. The Young Mathematicians' Network (that possessive s' is very deliberate) is a collection of individuals concerned about the special difficulties encountered by mathematicians at the beginning of their careers, particularly those difficulties associated with finding employment. We are NOT an organization--a weekly discussion group is more like it. This electronic message board is not a journal, nor even a newsletter (though for lack of a better word I do refer to it that way)--it is more along the lines of an informal conversation among the 600 or so readers. It is also meant to be an informational resource for those among us conducting job searches (applicants and employers, both). I think it may be incorrect to refer to myself as "editor", also. I don't perform any of the usual duties associated with that title. I merely collect and arrange the submissions each week. (I may correct a misspelling in your posting if I see one, but I will not add or delete a single word, even to fix an obvious grammatical lapse, unless you specifically ask me to do so.) I will not censor any submission except for violations of good taste and/or common decency. It is inevitable that occasionally some false information, or an ill-conceived notion (see item #9) creep in. I believe however that this is self-correcting; false information will be refuted and crazy ideas ignored. Meanwhile, we are performing a valuable service to the mathematical community: providing aid and comfort to young mathematicians enduring a very inhospitable time, bringing the concerns (and suggested remedies) of these people to the attention of the powers that be, and hopefully raising consciousnesses to the difficulty of beginning a career in mathematics these days. I encourage you all to participate in this conversation. (I am perfectly willing to post your submission anony- mously, if you are shy.) I should emphasize that this is MY opinion as to the nature of this group and this newsletter. This opinion is not necessarily shared by the other members of the editorial board or any of the readers of this newsletter. It is certainly NOT the official policy of YMN--as far as I know there is no official YMN policy. Steve Kennedy St. Olaf College kennedy@math.stolaf.edu ____________________________________________________________________ Item #2 News and notes a) Ballots for the AMS election are due in Providence by November 10. If you have not already voted, I encourage you to do so. I would also like to point out that the AWM (Association for Women in Mathematics) solicited statements from the candidates. These statements appear in the September-October issue of the AWM Newsletter. These statements are distinct from the ones which accompany your ballot and appeared in the September Notices. Some of them indicate a specific concern for the state of the job market and young mathematicians. I encourage you to read them before voting. b) Observant readers will note the appearance of a disclaimer in the header above. It was suggested to the editorial board that we might be legally liable for any damage caused by the dissemination of incorrect information through this newsletter. This suggestion, in part, motivated item #1 above. This means of communication (electronic) is such a radical departure from traditional print media, that our imaginations have not yet caught up to the technology. We are free to make of this newsletter whatever we wish. It is inevitable that the lawyers get involved sooner or later and try to define exactly what an electronic network is. Until then I suggest we relax and enjoy the freedom. c) Last week we received our first job announcement for posting. The editorial board was unanimous in deciding that we did not wish to be in the business of accepting such ads. We believe that there already exist ample fora for such announcements. We can not hope to do as well at job advertising as AMS/MAA/SIAM/AWM already do. We think that the purposes of this newsletter are better served by not accepting such ads. Do you agree? d) The editorial board is also discussing an abbreviated December- January publishing schedule. As it stands now there does not exist a volunteer to be editor for these months and we have discussed sharing the duties. It would be better if one person would volunteer to take on this job--anybody interested? ____________________________________________________________________ Item #3A Jim Maxwell: The Employment Register Sharon Pedersen (Item #8 of Issue 16 of the newsletter) remarked on the article in the October issue of NOTICES concerning the upcoming Employment Register in Cincinnati. The article reports on the experience at the San Antonio Employment Register (ER) held in January of this year, not the Baltimore ER. The new scheduling system was first used in San Antonio. A total of sixty-one (61) employers conducted interviews at the Employment Register (ER) in San Antonio. As is typical in recent years, some employers chose to conduct interviews simultaneously at more than one table. This fact added another seven interview tables, resulting in a total of 68 interview tables in operation at San Antonio. This number sets the upper bound on the number of interviews that can be scheduled for any one interview period. There were 461 applicants who participated at the San Antonio ER. If people are interested in more insight into the workings of the current ER in general and the San Antonio ER in particular, two articles are scheduled for publication soon, each authored by a member of the Joint Committee on Employment Opportunities (JCEO). The December issue of MAA's FOCUS will carry an article by Dr. Brent Morris, National Security Agency and the 1992-93 chair of JCEO. The November issue of Employment Information in the Mathematical Sciences will carry an article by Dr. Stan Benkoski, Wagner Associates and current chair of JCEO. Both of these articles should be of particular interest to those individuals considering participation in the upcoming Cincinnati ER. Jim Maxwell Associate Executive Director Professional Programs & Services American Mathematical Society JWM@MATH.AMS.ORG ____________________________________________________________________ Item #3B Curtis Bennett: My experience at the Baltimore Meetings The main thrust of this is about contacting department chairs at the joint meetings. While I was at a reception at the Baltimore meeting (January 1992), I ran into one of my old graduate school professors (Professor X). He had left the school I was at and at the time of the meeting was the chair at a major research university. Since I had enjoyed his class at the University of Chicago, I went up and reintroduced myself to him. The conversation started out very friendly, and then he asked me what I was doing. At that point I told him that I was looking for a job. I then asked if his school was hiring. This basically killed the discussion. It was quite clear to me that he did not want to talk about jobs. Moreover, when I later checked the bulletin board for messages, it was clear that Professor X was no longer even picking up his messages since most of them were requesting an "interview" with him. I raise this issue to point out that many of the department chairs from the large universities have no desire to be approached in such a way. I think if they want to contact you, then they will let you know, otherwise, you are only likely to annoy them. What concerned me about the situation is that I didn't really want to talk jobs with Professor X. However, even the mention of the job mess and his involvement as chair ruined whatever conversation we might have had. As for the job register. I had 7 interviews, one of which may have led to the campus interview, although, I think it is possible that I would have received such an interview anyway as the school was constrained by money to only interviewing applicants who could drive to the school. The rest went from good to bad. An interesting thing that happened though is that several schools asked that I send them an application. I did so and included a follow up letter to those schools, but I never heard back from them. I also had 3 interviews that were arranged outside of the register. These went relatively well. The end result, I received no offers that year. This may have been influenced by my receiving an NSF postdoctoral fellowship, since that made me unlikely to accept offers from the schools with very heavy teaching loads, low pay, and no interest in research. Curt Bennett cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu _______________________________________________________________________ Item #4A Paul Ehrlich: What to wear Remarks about dress when interviewing on campus-- one aspect of an on-campus interview is that the candidate typically meets with a representative of the Dean of Arts and Sciences Office. I have noticed that many current applicants seem to not be aware that this interview can be important in the following sense. If the candidate does not make a good impression in this interview, the Dean may order the Chair of the Department of Mathematics to look into the teaching record of the individual before the Mathematics Department is given permission to hire that individual, or even block the department's efforts to hire that person, if the Dean thinks it to be appropriate. [Here I mean that the Chair can be ordered to call up departments at insti- tutions where the applicant has taught previously and get hard evidence on teaching, such as student teaching evaluation numbers, student comments on the teaching forms, etc.]. While dressing in a suit and tie will not matter to the department of mathematics, at a large state university such as the University of Florida and probably also at an ivy league type undergraduate college, the Dean's office seems to be psychologically more assured about a candidate if they show up for the Dean's office interview neatly dressed. Anecdotal evidence from one of the applicants I hosted last year seems to indicate that he made a better impression with the Dean's office at Florida where he wore a suit and tie, than at the Dean's office at Indiana where he did not bother to dress up for this interview, but this may have just been a coincidence. Sincerely, Paul Ehrlich ehrlich@math.ufl.edu ____________________________________________________________________ Item #4B Ruth Gornet: What to wear II I noticed several comments about "what to wear" for interviews in recent YMN newsletters. I went through the job search last year and agonized over what to wear to interviews. What I decided was the following: 1) I wanted to feel comfortable. 2) I wanted to look appropriately dressed. 3) I didn't want people to notice my appearance *too* much. What I opted for was the "academic look" of a skirt, no-heeled boots, sweaterish type loose top and a blazer. This was my uniform for all of my talks, presentations, and interviews of any kind from December through the landing of a job. I had several different skirts for two- and three-day interviews. (Guys are lucky in this respect. Change a tie, you change the entire outfit.) During all of my interviews, I basically "forgot" about my attire, which means I concentrated on mathematics, not feeling under or over- dressed. I"m not sure this is for everyone, but it certainly worked for me for the following reasons: 1) A lot of the professors I talked to had to dress up for the interviews. Their attitude: "I dress up, you dress up". I saw my old advisor from undergrad days in a suit and tie for the very first time in my life at the employment register. He wore that suit and a tie for each of the 40 interviews he conducted. By dressing up, you show your respect for the professor's time and effort. 2) At on campus interviews, you also speak to deans and administra- tive types who don't appreciate the "it doesn't matter what you wear" attitude of mathematicians. They wear a suit and tie everyday, and they are closer to the business end of things where people *are* judged by their appearance. Keep in mind also that the professors have to "sell" their candidate to the administration at their university/college. Also, quite often you're taken to fancy restaurants. 3) A skirt on a woman is still considered "dressy." Far more dressy than trousers. When my advisor told me to wear a skirt on interviews (I think I've seen her in a skirt 3 times in the 5 years I've known her), I took her seriously. 4) A business suit on a woman is not the equivalent of a suit and tie on a man. It's very severe and seemed possibly too formal. I don't know. It depends on what kind of suit, how you wear it, who you are etc. As I usually wear jeans and a sweater with sneakers, I know I would've looked like a fool checking to see if my nylons had run or tripping over heels. Good Luck to everyone going through the market this year!! Ruth Gornet gornet@msri.org ____________________________________________________________________ Item #5 Allyn Jackson: The Death of the Myth? Not to engage in one-upsmanship, but... As far as I remember, the first time the current job market problems were mentioned in the Notices was in an article I wrote for the December 1989 issue. The article had the rather innocuous title "Hiring and Jobseeking in Academia", in part because of skepticism on the part of some at the AMS that the problems with the job market were real. At the time I heard many people say that the hundreds of applications coming into departments were just due to word processors and photocopying machines. I think that nowadays much more is known about what is causing the problems of the job market and the AMS is paying much more attention to the issue. Allyn Jackson American Mathematical Society AXJ@MATH.AMS.ORG ___________________________________________________________________ Item #6 Mickey McDonald: Applying to Liberal Arts Colleges I went through the Register/Meat Market last year, basically searching for a position at a smaller, well-respected liberal-arts college. I succeeded with a job at Occidental College (CA). I think I learned a few things from this experience. First, applications. I think it is important that your CV reflect the fact that you are applying to a liberal-arts college, a place which values teaching first and foremost, but which also values research. Thus you want your teaching to stand out -- with courses you've taught (or TA'd for), courses you WANT to teach or are qualified to teach -- especially teaching interests outside of your specific specialization (at a liberal arts college, you typically share the duties of ALL the undergraduate courses, it's nice to see you're interested in all these courses), awards (and note that EVERYONE just about has an award these days...so DON'T forget to mention yours and try to make it stand out somehow!) Most liberal arts colleges also want to see a research summary and research prospectus. Think about who is going to read these -- probably not someone IN your field. So try to make it somewhat accessible and somewhat interesting to the non-expert. Most colleges also ask for some sort of statement on teaching (or general) philosophy also. I sent this to colleges which didn't request this as well. This is probably where I spent MOST of my time in the application process -- really putting down in writing how I view the important relationship and dynamics between teaching and research scholarship. Finally, letters of rec. You MUST have at least one letter address SPECIFICALLY your teaching abilities! It is also nice if your advisor or some other research letter talks about how great you are as a teacher (if you can figure a way to get this -- great. I basically told my two research rec writers at Duke to include information on my teaching abilities.) THE IMPORTANT THING. If you are applying ALSO to research institutions, obviously you can't send them the SAME material above. This means writing out TWO SETS of applications! DO IT! It's worth it! You will not get hired at a College with a research institution application and you will not get hired at a research institution with a teaching College application...and you may not get hired at either with an "Inbetween" application! Employment Register. Many colleges with early deadlines (Williams, Davidson, and last year -- Drew, Alma, Lake Forest, etc.) basically have their first round of interviews at the Meetings, but NOT IN THE EMPLOYMENT REGISTER! I had several preliminary interviews at San Antonio outside of the employment register. In applying to these places, make sure they know that you will be there and make sure they can get ahold of you during the Christmas break -- many of my meetings were set up while I was at home over the holidays! However, the job I ultimately got was through the Employment Register....sort of. Of the three (decent) campus interviews I eventually had, one was not at the Register at all, one I interviewed with at the Register, and one (where I am now) I pursued at the Register and we met for five minutes over a Coke during a break in the Register! Somehow you have to get picked for interviews at the Register. Contrary to much of what they said, last year, the ONLY interviews were those where the EMPLOYER picked US! That means you have to somehow sell yourself on that very scant one-page info. sheet (Applicant Resume Form in the back of Oct. Notices). If you're interested in the smaller college scene, you probably should sell yourself in that light as whole-heartedly as possible on that one-page form! Talk about teaching, talk about undergraduate education, talk about teaching awards, talk about colleges, talk about college experiences of your own...whatever! VERY IMPORTANT: BRING YOUR "TEACHING" CV WITH YOU! Even if you've already applied to this place, they will probably not have your CV with them. This shows them your interest, your preparation, and gives them something to ask you about and TAKE HOME WITH THEM! I even did a bit of research on some of these places before the conference -- especially those you are most interested in! Sorry to be so long-winded, but I think if you are applying to the smaller colleges, you have to look like you WANT to be applying there! Trust me -- they get enough other people who look that way -- they won't give you a second glance if your application looks completely out of place! -Mickey McDonald Occidental College mickey@cheshire.oxy.edu ___________________________________________________________________ Item #7 Ivar Stakgold: Hints on Dossier Preparation If you expect to receive your Ph.D by summer '94 or if you will be finishing a postdoctoral position by then, you need to prepare a persuasive dossier (constrained, of course, by adherence to the truth, whether out of high ethical standards or fear of punishment.) The three basic kinds of academic positions available are postdoctoral, term and tenure-track. The first two of these are for limited time and offer essentially no hope for tenure. Tenure-track positions are supposed to lead to tenure after successful completion of a probationary period. In some research institutions that may mean winning the Fields medal. At other research institutions (like my own) and at most comprehensive universities and 4-year colleges, the term tenure-track indicates that there is actually a permanent position to which the incumbent can be promoted after meeting realistic criteria for advancement. In any event, there are mighty few tenure-track positions at group I institutions and almost none of these are available to new Ph. D's. Since it is unlikely that you will have the time or patience to tailor your dossier to the institution to which you are applying, let me suggest a compromise. Divide your dossier into two parts: a core which goes to every place where you are applying and an added part geared to those schools of particular interest to you. The core should contain the basic facts of your C.V. Do leave out the captaincy of your middle school soccer team and your devotion to mountain biking. If, however, you are an accomplished musician, a chess master or a bridge expert, such information might appeal to someone on the selection committee. You must, of course, point out your research acccomplishments and interests. Try to do this in an intelligent way. For the wrong way, read that funniest of mathematical articles: ``The Ideal Mathematician" in The Mathematical Experience by P.J. Davis and R. Hersh. You must also provide a documentation of your teaching experience. A one-page statement about your prospective research plans and your teaching philosophy is a useful inclusion in the dossier. EVERY SCHOOL IS INTERESTED IN YOUR QUALIFICATIONS FOR TEACHING. Both the distinguished research institution and the ordinary 4-year college are vitally concerned with your ability to teach in their respective environment. All department chairs, deans, provosts and presidents are under pressure to improve teaching. Educational reform is a phrase on every administrator's lips. Mathematics is on the front line: a lot of service teaching, mixed student preparation, varying student attitudes (including sometimes outright antagonism), and substantial failure rates. A candidate's potential for alleviating the department's teaching problems is an important factor in many hiring decisions. What do you have to offer? Some items are obvious - teaching evaluations, prizes, types of assistantships (recitation vs. autonomous handling of a course). Other possible points: participation in seminars to improve teaching; involvement in courses which are part of the calculus reform movement or which stress the use of technology or of new teaching methods such as cooperative learning; assisting in courses for minorities or in courses to meet general education requirements; involvement in undergraduate research projects, in honors courses, in undergraduate math. clubs. When applying to a research-oriented institution, you will want to supplement the core portion of your dossier. Such institutions normally hire junior faculty to round out a research group within the department. You should, therefore, find out who is in your field at that institution and describe how you think you might fit. If you can participate in the activities of two groups, so much the better. Most departments want you to publish extensively during the probationary period and they expect you to exploit the momentum acquired in your dissertation and/or in your postdoctoral appointment. At the same time they also want you to strike up new collaborations and to move away from your dissertation topic! Obviously it is going to be difficult to satisfy all these demands. Nevertheless, you would do well to keep these conflicting expectations in mind when you write up your research plans. These are questions which may be asked of you if you are selected for an interview. But that is a subject for another article! In the meantime, let me wish you the best of luck. Ivar Stakgold stakgold@brahms.udel.edu P.S. Those who expect to attend the Employment Register in Cincinnati should so inform prospective employers. (editorial note: This article is one of several that the editorial board solicited on this topic. Others will appear in future issues. We are grateful to Professor Stakgold for responding to our request.) ___________________________________________________________________ Item #8 Mark Winstead: AWM Panel (Update on a News and Notes item) The Association for Women in Mathematics is sponsoring a panel discussion at the winter meetings entitled "Are women getting all the jobs?". I am one of the panelist for this discussion. The others who have accepted positions on the panel include Helen Grundman (Bryn Mawr) and Mel Rothenberg (University of Chicago). I am curious to know how various schools deal with federal equal opportunity laws and their various governing bodies own desires for diversity and/or affirmative action. I would be interested in hearing from former and current hiring committee members on this subject. Mark Winstead winstead@ml.kva.se _____________________________________________________________________ Item #9 Mark Winstead: Rumors Column It seems that it may be best to kill any sort of gossip column. While it would be still good to report the status of various schools in their job search, some have raised objections to reporting rumors about what schools want, etc., on the grounds that some less honest applicants may plant false rumors to effectively increase their chances at a particular school. *Concerns* editors may publish articles on what a particular school is looking for, but such articles will not be published anonymously and will be written by someone who is in a proper position at said school, e.g. the chair of the hiring committee. This policy is to be distinguished from policies on printing articles on what particular types of schools are looking for. Mark Winstead, (with approval from the administrative board) winstead@ml.kva.se P.S. One objector of the gossip column, a prominent member of the faculty of a major university and member of some AMS committees, further objected to submissions to *Concerns* which lumped rank and file members of the AMS with the AMS itself (he got on a critical roll). Let's remember that the AMS has "officially" acknowledged a bad job market, and in fact in various reports said it doesn't see the situation getting better any time soon as long as schools continue to produce some 1100 or so PhD's a year. The MYTH lives because many rank and file mathematicians have not read these reports, or refuse to believe them. {This postscript is my own. The administrative board had nothing to do with it} ____________________________________________________________________ Item #10 Mark Winstead: AMS Study on '90-'91 Ph.D.s Some of you will be interested to know about the following: . . . we are working on a report of the employment status as of the spring-early summer of this year of the PhD class of 1990-91. The "we" I mention is Don McClure and I, along with my Staff Assistant for the Survey, Elizabeth Foulkes. Don is the chair of the AMS-IMS-MAA Data Committee. The Data Committee will review the results of this new survey at its meeting in Cincinnati in January. I expect we will continue to do these sort of things, resources permitting. Longitudinal surveys like this are costly to carry out, or we would be doing much more of it. Best regards, Jim [Maxwell Associate Executive Director Professional Programs & Services American Mathematical Society ] Dr. Maxwell is the highest ranking employee/official of the AMS who deals extensively with employment issues. He was extremely helpful in getting YMN events on the schedule for the winter meetings, in fact, we probably wouldn't be on the schedule without his cooperation, guidance and help. Mark Winstead winstead@ml.kva.se ____________________________________________________________________ Item #11 Curtis Bennett: Member Survey Since I will be a member of a panel discussion at the Cincinnati meetings, I would like to have some hard data on the membership of the YMN. Additionally, the Association for Women in Mathematics has inquired about the number of women in the YMN. As a result: I would appreciate it if subscribers could fill out the following survey mail it directly to me. (I hope my email system can handle it!) I am not asking for names, merely general biographical information. Survey: Please cut and fill out and return to cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu 1. Subscriber: [ ] Individual-- [ ] Female [ ] Male [ ] Group 2. Is your (expected) degree in: [ ] Mathematics, [ ] Statistics, [ ] Other:______________ 3. Date of Ph.D. (Expected or Awarded):___________ 4. Employment: [ ] Academic [ ] Non-academic [ ] Unemployed (Please Specify) [ ] grad student [ ] Scientific Industry [ ] Part time [ ] Government [ ] 1-year position [ ] Financial Industry [ ] 2+ year [ ] Other_____________ temporart position [ ] permanent, non-tenure track [ ] tenure track [ ] tenured 5. Reason for subscribing: 6. Is there anything in particular that you would like the YMN to address? 7. Comments: (Note, if you have a job story to tell, you may put it here, alternatively, you can post it to the CoYM. I do not guarantee I will have the time to read all job stories). Curt Bennett cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu ____________________________________________________________________ Item #12 Mark Winstead: Indiana Ph.D. Survey Today I received a letter from a Richard Marcuson, who saw my name in the article in the September issue of the Notices "Jobs, Grants and the New PhD". He writes to tell me of his graduation during the last job market disaster, when he got his PhD from Indiana in 1972. He speaks of his frequent unemployment. He then describes a study which he did where he tookwinstead@ml.kva.se the list of Indiana PhD's from the decade 1975-1984 (these are available by looking at back issues of the Notices). He then compared this list to their current data from the AMS-MAA-SIAM Combined Membership List. Before stating his results, I should make a word of caution. I find that for a mathematician, this gentleman is not a very good (thinking) statistician. His study fails to account for the possibility that some are not members of any of the organizations accounted for. Whether we realize it or not, we all know prominent academic mathematicians who are not members of any of the organizations, simply because they forgot to send in their dues or they choose not to join. Other reasons that some of Indiana graduates may not be on the list is because they returned to their native country or otherwise are not in the U.S anymore and see no reason to belong to these predominantly American organizations, others may be working in industry and choose not to join these academically oriented organizations, etc. This certainly accounts for the bulk (in my estimation) of his CML non-listees. With that disclaimer, let me present his numbers. He counts 72 PhDs given by Indiana mathematical science departments from 1975-84. He counts 14 of these as being listed in the CML currently, for his "success rate" of .1944. Included with what he sent me is a list of all the graduates from 1975-84 and what is known of their employment status. What is the true "success rate" here? Well, we would have to account for how many Indiana graduates go into industry without joining SIAM, etc. I do not know if we should follow his suggestion to do this for all PhD granting departments and let students considering where to attend see this, because I am very wary of these methods for comparisons. However, doing something like this could be a somewhat worthwhile project, if taken with a grain of salt. The advantages of such a study seems to be limited to its ease, the disadvantages being how easily such a study could be abused. At best, it is good for a rough comparison of depart- ments. Personally, I think our time and efforts are spent on better methods or other projects, but I know better than to assume everyone will agree with me, so I have presented his information to YMN. Last remark: In Dr. Marcuson's note, he says he sends his data to all Indiana graduate students. I am curious to hear from Indiana students, graduates and faculty on Dr. Marcuson and their reaction to his mailings. Mark Winstead winstead@ml.kva.se P.S. Ok, I know I've made a lot of submissions this week. I will limit them for a couple of weeks to follow-ups to this weeks', ok? {:-{)} -- self-portrait ____________________________________________________________________ Item #13A Chris Leary: Response to Greg Gibson It seems to me that there is no reaon in the world not to include photocopies of your graduate and undergraduate transcripts in your initial letter to any school that had advertised an opening. If your transcript shows that there is no match between the employer's needs and your experience, why not find that out early? It is better for you and better for them. My experience in reading folders (at small liberal-arts sort of places) has been that certainly letters of reference are the most important factor in getting you an interview, but that your transcript can get you an edge. Did you double major in math and physics as an undergraduate, even though your thesis is in number theory? Do you have a history minor? Did you do your undergraduate work at a school that is sort of like the school to which you are applying? These are the sort of (both important and unimportant) distinctions that can make your folder stand out from the 25 other candidates who also have "interesting and important" results in their thesis and are "one of Enormous State University's finest teaching assistants." That is the sort of thing that can get you an interview. The other reason that I always sent my transcripts was that it was easier for me to cough up the extra dime than it was for me to worry about whether or not to send the transcript. Hey, if they don't want it, they can file it. Chris Leary SUNY Geneseo leary@geneseo.bitnet ________________________________________________________________ Item #13B Peter Johnson: Why Official Transcripts? Here is something timely that I had hoped someone else would raise. Maybe we are all too busy, but some discussion seems worthwhile. It is a much lesser issue than that of reforming the process of having to fill out large numbers of application forms, but it is far simpler. What useful purpose can it serve for some schools to demand that all applicants submit OFFICIAL transcripts? I can understand that this may be necessary at a later stage, say when candidates are selected for interviews, but is it not otherwise a device for cutting down the number of applicants by subjecting them to an unnecessarily onerous and sometimes quite expensive process? The task is particularly unpleasant for those like myself who have attended a number of institutions. When you take into account that the chances of success in any particular case are slim it can become demoralizing. This cuts the other way as well - a school loses a chance to screen excellent candidates who were deterred from applying because of the need to focus time and energy on essentials. Now for questions which some readers will be in a position to answer: What actually goes on with these transcripts? How often are official ones as necessary as they seem? Could someone with a different point of view perhaps justify or clarify the reasons for such requirements? By the way, at one place I phoned I ended up talking with a dean who said that most people did not send official transcripts as demanded, but that it was not a problem. I found it surprising that people would take that risk of being rejected. Is it in fact commonly done? Peter Johnson Tech Univ Eindhoven The Netherlands pmj@win.tue.nl ________________________________________________________________ Item #14 Closing Credits The Young Mathematicians' Network is administered by: Charles Yeomans cyeomans@s.ms.uky.edu Mark Winstead winstead@ml.kva.se Franklin Mendivil mendivil@math.gatech.edu Stephen Kennedy kennedy@stolaf.edu Kalin Godev kalin@math.psu.edu Neil Calkin calkin@math.gatech.edu Curtis Bennett cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu Jeff Adams adams@bright.uoregon.edu Edward Aboufadel aboufade@scus1.ctstateu.edu ____________________________________________________________________ End of Journal -- Next week: The Discussion Continues