*Concerns of Young Mathematicians* Volume 2, Issue 31 October 5, 1994 An electronically distributed digest for discussions of the issues of concern to mathematicians at the beginning of their careers. PLEASE FORWARD TO ANY POTENTIALLY INTERESTED INDIVIDUALS Please, direct submissions and questions to Frank Arlinghaus frank@math.ysu.edu , editor for the month of October. Next issue: Wednesday, October 12. Editor for September: Bob Dobrow dobrow@cam.nist.gov Editor for October: Frank Arlinghaus frank@math.ysu.edu Editor for November: Frank Sottile sottile@math.toronto.edu To subscribe: Send mail to Charles Yeomans at cyeomans@s.ms.uky.edu Back issues and other information are available via anonymous FTP to ftp.ms.uky.edu, in pub3/mailing.lists/ymn-list. Table of Contents Item # Title ------ ----- 1 Editor's notes 2 Letters to the Editors AMS elections 3 Seeking Employment in the Financial Sector Kevin Madigan 4 Employment Survey,Part 3 Curtis Bennett 5 Job Search 93-94 Kevin Charlwood 6 WORKSHOPS FOR WOMEN GRADUATE STUDENTS AND POSTDOCTORAL MATHEMATICIANS 7 Closing Credits _______________________________________________________________ Item #1 Editor's notes: This week's issue has few items, but they're long. Each should be interesting to many of our subscribers. Of special interest to those of us seeking employment are the third part of the employment survey, Kevin Madigan's account of his venture into the financial sector, and Kevin Charlwood's account of his experiences this past spring. Also of interest is the AMS election. For those of you in the AMS, the ballot was in the September Notices, and is due on November 10. The candidates are being surveyed (surveys due October 10), and their statements will appear in the next (if possible) issue of CoYM. However, some of you decide not to wait (see Letters to the Editors). Those of you going to San Francisco may be interested in the special funding available to women in item #6. Note that the deadline is October 15. Frank Arlinghaus frank@math.ysu.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #2: Letters to the editors With regard the Sept. 14, 1994 issue of the YMN newsletter, item #6: Having the YMN send a list of questions to candidates for AMS (and other society) office is a great idea; I always find useful what the AWM publishes, for example. But Oct. 10, 1994 response date is much too late to be useful! Many of us have already filled out and mailed in our ballots. The AWM info often used to come late too, but now seems to arrive about the same time as the ballots. I strongly encourage YMN to continue this questioning of candidates, but next time to try to organize it early enough that responses can be published (in the newsletter, I'd presume) in early September. Jean Taylor Editor's response: This year, we were operating under difficult time constraints. In the future, we plan to do this earlier. However, we gave the candidates a deadline of one month before the ballots were due. I'm surprised people voted so quickly, since most candidates seem to be completely unaware of the major issues facing junior mathematicians (or think we don't vote). Perhaps the AMS should be faulted for giving you more than 2 months to vote (but I think not). Remember, the deadline is November 10. _______________________________________________________________ Item #3: Seeking Employment in the Financial Sector A few months ago I faced the possibility of having to leave academia, and was actively seeking employment in the financial sector. I had heard (as many of you have) that many of the big trading houses like to hire mathematicians. I also saw ads from recruiters posted to the e-math facility, so I thought I should look into it. Below is some generic information which may prove useful to those of you interested in finding non-academic employment. I am no expert in this area. Many of you may know more about this than I do, but I know many of my friends with PhDs in pure mathematics knew nothing about this until we started discussing it. Read this information with the following caveat: this is only what I was able to figure out in a few months from reading and talking to people in the financial sector. I went on one interview. Yes, indeed, there is money to be made in this area. HOWEVER, this field is very risky and unpredictable. One must realize that this money requires long hours and accompanies a good deal of uncertainty about the future (will I be fired tommorrow if the market plunges or I cause the firm to lose several million dollars?). One must also realize that the financial world is motivated by greed. It doesn't matter how much you know about cohomology or bounded symmetric domains. All that counts is money. If you can't handle this, stay away. I know of several people who went into this field and were downright disgusted by it. Others will have no problem with it. The first question I am usually asked is "what do they want mathematicians to do?" Well, a lot of things, but one of the things the financial sector looks to mathematicians for is the ability to understand the esoteric instruments that are being traded these days. In particular, they want what they call "quantitative analysts". Many of the instruments being traded these days are so-called derivative securities, meaning a security whose value depends on something else (eg. an option to buy 100 shares of stock in company X on December 1 for $100. If it looks like the stock price will be much lower than $100 on Dec 1 then the option is worthless. If it looks like it will be much higher, then the option may be quite valuable.) Derivative securites can be quite tricky, and valuing them may be very nontrivial (someone offering to sell/buy such a security needs to know what to charge/pay for it, and thats where we can come in). At first you may know nothing about finance, but you do know what a differential equation is. You need to know stochastic differential equations, because many of the models used in valuing financial instruments rely on certain stochastic differential equations, some of which resemble the heat equation (leaving aside arguments as to how good these models are). A good grip on statistics and stochastic differential equations should be enough to get you in the door provided you posses the other required skills. Many of the large houses are willing and eager to hire a mathematician (or physicist, etc.) to spend time reading and learning the business end while also doing some computer work. For this purpose it is essential that you can program in C or C++ (or both). One of the reasons they are hiring you is that you can serve as an interface between the systems people and the traders. You need to be able to tell the computer to run models, and universally they want you to do this in C and/or C++. It would be a good idea to work through a book such as John Hull's "Options, futures, and other derivative securities", paying attention to running a few models. Many of you already know how to do all of this because of applied math/statistics backgrounds. Those of us in more abstract areas need to learn a little more math and hone the programming skills. One must be prepared to deal with people with no "higher" education running the show and demanding performance in unrealistic time frames. One must be able to deal with the pressure and be able to handle a superior demanding immediate solutions to questions which require several weeks of deep thought if one were to give a mathematically rigorous solution. On the positive side, this is a stimulating and quickly paced working environment, which many people enjoy. The most important question is "how do I get one of these jobs?", and that involves networking. From what I understand, all these jobs are filled through recruiters or personal contacts. Talk to professors and colleagues and find out who you know or they know in this field. Somehow you have to get a recruiter (or someone on the inside) to want to place you. Remember that recrutiers get paid only if they place you, and they may lose interest in you after a few weeks. That is the nature of the business, it has nothing to do with your validity as a human. (Also be wary of recrutiers sending you to the personell office or charging you money.) If you get no interviews through one person after a few weeks, start working with someone else. The best advice I can give you here is to find someone you can trust who can help you get an interview and guide you through the process. Friends of professors or former classmates are a tremendous help. Attitude is incredibly important. You can't come off like you know everything, and you can't have the attitude that you only want to do this until the academic job market gets better. These are kisses of death. You also have to make it clear that you are willing and eager to learn. Of course, there are a lot of other variables to worry about (dress, personal appearance, communication skills, comportment...), but those are not really specific to this area. I hope this helps some of you, and I would be happy to entertain questions, though my knowledge is somewhat limited to whats been written above. In short, you need enthusiasm, a knowledge of statistics and stochastic differential equations, the ability to program in C/C++, and contacts to get you started. Kevin Madigan madigan@math.nwu.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #4: Employment Survey: Part III Among the 89 responses I received there was a wealth of comments that people had. This article contains many of the comments from the graduate students who responded to the survey. Every comment is anonymous, and I have made some effort into breaking the comments into basic groups. The first set of responses are those discussing the failures and successes of the job market. That is, comments about the job market not operating as we hope it might, or comments showing that in some cases, the market does seem to work in the way that we would like it to. The second set of responses contains comments containing basic information on what worked or didn't work for individuals on the market, and what the responder felt turned out to be an important consideration that helped get them or their friends hired. I have a few observations based on reading the comments, the first of which is that there is quite a lot of disillusionment with the system. This is not really surprising considering that all of the respondents had just spent the last 6 months going through the grueling experience of hunting for a job. I am also pleased to see the number of people who are willing to offer their insights on the job market. Based on the latter set of comments, something that I think everyone should be aware of is that what works for students at one school may not work at other for students from other schools. Moreover, how one school hires will have very little to do with how another school hires. These differences even occur among schools where you would least expect it. This is why I feel that it helps to have a large number of data points when examining the process that schools go through in looking to fill a position. Now to the responses: Responses on failures (and successes) of the job market. ================= I'm glad that someone is taking the time to find out just where things stand this year so far; I'd be curious to know what the projected unemployment rate will be and if there's any short-term help on the way from the AMS or some other such body....otherwise, there'll be one major waste of talent and experience sweeping the nation next year. ================== I felt that the employers had made up their minds before the interviews. The interview seemed to be a confirmation of their decisions and a sales pitch. ==================== I never heard back from the other place that phone-interviewed me. I have not heard up or down from a number of other places that I sent applications to. I haven't heard OF anybody who has heard from anyone either. Nobody seems to know what the correct time table is, or anything! I *started* applying in mid-January. I stopped applying in Mid-March. I got the job I accepted *solely* through _my_, not my advisor's contacts, even though my advisor is _very_ famous. I wish there were guidelines on how one gets one's advisor involved, or whether one should get him/her involved. ====================== The other two places at which I had interviews did not bother to contact me at all after the interview, even some time after the job had been accepted by someone else. I had to call them back and ask, which I thought was a bit inappropriate. Then I just got the form letter rejection, too ("due to the large number of highly qualified applicants", etc.). ========================== "short lists" which didn't amount to anything. The numbers of people on these short lists were 40, 40, 16, 5, 10, and an undetermined number. I landed the job because someone there works in my area. =========================== The offer I received was contingent on my beginning work immediately. Although this was not at all convenient, due to the status of my thesis work, I did not feel that I had any bargaining power. So far I am happy with the job, but at this point it does not appear that my doctoral work is going to be of any particular benefit, aside from the general skills I obtained by associating with and observing a diverse group of brilliant individuals. As far as the pay, I am making 5K less than I was before I started my PhD!! At this point, I truly wish that I had never begun a Ph.D. program. =========================== I have been told repeatedly by a variety of people that being a white male is not to my advantage. =========================== Industry is not much better than academia, especially with large companies (the kind with research labs) still refusing to hire until they fully recover from the recession, and especially if you're limiting yourself to a particular metropolitan area (two-body problem). I plan to submit an article to YMN when/if I land a position, sharing my experiences and strategies. All I can say is that I'd hate to be a _pure_ mathematician trying to convince some corporation I'm worth hiring...! =========================== One short anecdote. I applied to a medium-sized research school where one of the (I think influential) faculty knew who I was. He told me that my file looked good, but that the school had decided, due to the horrible job market, to open up its post-doctoral positions to people several years past the Ph. D., that is, people who were beyond the post-doc stage. Since someone with 0 years of experience cannot really compete with someone with 3-4-5 years of experience, he told me it was very unlikely I would get a job there. He was right. =========================== I was pleasantly surprised that the system sometimes actually works. I was not offered the job because of any connections that I or my advisor had. The position advertised was for somebody in my field (one of the very few that specifically mentioned my field) and I applied. There were two people called for an interview, they made me an offer, and I accepted within the two weeks they allowed for my decision. I feel very lucky. ====================== I had a two body problem, and ended up turning my offers down to stay at my graduate institution in a one-yearpart-time teaching position. This may sound bad but it was the best compromise I could make considering all I was trying to balance. ======================= After working hard and trying to use every possible angle or connection I could think of to get the best job. The job I ended up accepting was one where I had none of these, although the other two offers I received came as a result of playing all of the angles. It makes you wonder if all of the time and effort was really beneficial. =========================== =========================== Comments and Suggestions on job hunting. ---------------------------------------- I had delayed graduation 1 year after not receiving an offer the first time around. All of the people who got jobs of any kind, including postdocs or temporary positions, were known as fantastic teachers. One or two outstanding researchers, who didn't happen to have teaching awards, were passed over entirely. It seems that teaching counts for a great deal in hiring for any type of position that a new PhD is likely to get. ====================== I must differ with the opinion I've seen expressed that one should send a small number of carefully written applications, rather than wallpapering America with one's cv. That philosophy assumes one has a good way of generating the right short list of schools. Had I restricted myself to my 20 favorite schools when I applied, I probably would not have applied to the place that hired me this year. However, now that I've done more research I can see that really my new job is a better place for me than most of my old favorites. So the reasons for sending a ton of applications aren't all cynical. ======================= I got the one offer I did because of a (semi) personal connection, i.e., my advisor knew someone on the faculty. I have had no indication whatsoever (with one or two exceptions) that any of the other schools even looked at my application. I would be very interested to hear of people who got their positions simply by applying, i.e., they (or their advisor) did not know anyone at the hiring institution. I am trying to determine the utility of applying to schools where you have no connection to anyone. ====================== The one thing that really seemed to make a (positive) difference for me was that I have far more teaching experience than most grad students. I have been developing/using various "reform" materials and techniques. This provided a topic of common interest when talking informally with faculty where I interviewed. =========================== My experiences indicate to me the importance of a carefully written cover letter, and the usefulness of the ER. Of the 14 schools to which I applied, I was on the short list at 4, and invited to on-site interviews at 3. All three of these were schools I interviewed with at the ER. One of the schools I turned down told me that I was their first choice. They wound up being my second choice. This was a position that I would not have applied for had I not gone through the ER. By the time I accepted a position, several of the places I where I had applied had not even started looking at applications, so I can't say what might have happened with them. However, several people mentioned that my cover letter was one of the main reasons I wound up under consideration. For what it's worth to others, here's what I think I did differently from some of my peers (at least at the school I graduated from): I only applied to a select few schools where there seemed to be a particularly good match. I specifically stated why I thought I would be suitable for the position advertised, i.e., I mentioned things that they had listed as desired in the ad, that I could satisfy. I also mentioned any features of the school, department or position that I felt were particularly attractive to me. Before I wrote my letters, I researched each department as carefully as I could, using college catalogs, e-mailing colleagues, talking with anyone I could find who had graduated from the school, etc. This took a good deal of time--several hours for each school, at least, and many hours for my top four choices--which is one reason why I applied to only 14 schools, but it also helped me eliminate many positions from my consideration. Incidentally, despite the horror stories I have read in recent years, EVERY school to which I applied kept me informed as to the status of their search, and whether I was still under consideration, and EVERY one of them sent me a letter when the search was concluded, letting me know that they had filled the position (even though I sent a letter to all of them asking to be removed from consideration after I accepted a position). I don't know whether this indicates an improvement over previous years, or is simply a reflection of my attempt to choose schools with a supportive atmosphere, but it was heartening to see. Kudos to all the search committees that took the time to do things right! ========================= Curtis Bennett cbennet@math.bgsu.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #5: Job Search 93-94 Well, here goes....job search '93 - '94. Where to begin....it all started last October as I gathered my search materials. Sample cover letters, stacks of freshly printed resumes, and stacks 'n stacks of transcript copies. I had my references put letters together for me, making sure they did them in a timely fashion. Enough of the basics...time for the nitty-gritty. I began sending out app's Nov. 15, had 20 out by Thanksgiving, 65 out by Christmas, and 85 by the time I went to the joint meetings in Cincinnati. The pace slowed somewhat, but when all was said and done, I had sent out 137 applications by the end of June. I stopped there as I had finally landed a one-year position, and by that time was more than happy to quit banging my head against the wall. I applied for positions which were teaching-oriented for the most part, as well as others for which I felt even remotely qualified. Everyone I knew was doing the same thing, and with the market the way it was, no one was taking any chances. What if THIS is the school that ends up giving me a real interview?! Everything I applied for was academic in nature. If I had it to do over again, I'd spend time looking into non-academic jobs, too, however time-consuming. I was trying to finish my thesis, which I finally defended successfully (is there any other way?) on the 29th of July. Bear in mind, putting out well over 100 applications is a huge undertaking, especially when one personalizes all his / her cover letters!! Two guys I left behind at UW-Milwaukee had sent out roughly 200 or so applications, and got nothing. They're still there, as part-time lecturers or 1/3 TA's. Grim reality, so prepare for it now! Ok, so now on to the activity which I encountered from sending all that stuff out. Yeah, some schools actually called me up....looking back on it, I'm rather quite pleased that so many did, given the anecdotal evidence I've been seeing recently. These are arranged chronologically as much as possible, with as many of the pertinent specifics as I can remember: 1. University of Maine-Farmington. On Sat. 2/5/94, I received a "top 60" letter with a note about a possible phone interview should I make the top 15 or so. On 2/9/94, I was called to arrange a phone interview which ended up taking place on Fri. 2/11/94. I sent a "thank-you" note to the five cmte. members afterwards, but was not invited for an on-campus interview. Two months later, I received another letter stating that they had not yet filled the position, and inquired if I was still interested. I was, so I called them back on or about 4/16/94 to schedule another phone interview with four committee members. Their real problem was salary; they couldn't get anyone to bite for $28.5K. No misprint; their letter indicated a desire to find someone willing to "be paid at the low end of the national average". Good luck buying a house in Maine on that salary!! Anyway, no invitation was extended to me that time, either, so that little chapter was closed two weeks later with a rejection letter saying they'd filled the position. 2. SUNY-Farmingdale. I messed up! I had only intended to apply to four-year schools, tenure-track positions, etc. From the ad I saw in the FOCUS, it sounded like a four-year school, so I must confess I didn't do my homework on this one. I had a message that they were trying to contact me on Fri. 2/25/94. As I was unavailable, they said they'd call back the next Wed., late in the afternoon. No call ever came as promised, though if I had wanted to pursue them a bit, things might have worked out differently. More than three months later, I received a rejection letter. 3. The College of St. Francis, Joliet, Illinois. Interesting position. The dept. chair wanted to hire someone to start up and maintain a strong program in actuary. I thought, ok, I'm not exactly what they're looking for, but what the hey? APPLY! Apply I did, and landed a phone interview with a nice lady from their department on 4/17/94. She and apparently others on the committee were impressed with the wide array of teaching experience that I'd had, in particular all the "full control" classes I'd taught. I was asked to send in another letter detailing my experience regarding actuary. I had passed two exams, and knew several people in the "biz", and I figured I could handle whatever they'd want at the undergraduate level. I had another conversation with the same lady on 5/10/94, and sent even more information to her. The chair of the dept. still didn't think I was suitable (I guess) as more than a month later came the big rejection letter. 4. Montana Tech, Butte Montana. Another call on 4/17! Gee, this hunt ought to be over soon, hey? Things are really starting to hum! I had a phone interview with a member of the dept. that evening, and it went swimmingly. I kept in touch with them via e-mail over the next few days. I smelled a rat, though, when the e-mail stopped and my references at UWM had been contacted. Uh-oh...something went awry, who knows where, and that was the end of that. Rejection city came a month later. 5. Elizabeth City State University, Elizabeth City, NC. I was contacted by the chair of the search committee on Sun. 5/15/94 to see if I was still interested. Yes, indeed! I then received calls from the dept. secretary on 5/23 and 5/26 to eventually schedule an on-campus visit for half a day on June 2nd. A major problem arose in speaking with the Dean: No reimbursement for interviewing expenses, unless the candidate becomes a hire. After having called the airlines and making some arrangements, I saw the tab would have been a nifty $500 - $600! A little too rich for my blood, even though desperation time was beginning to settle in. For other reasons which I'll decline to discuss here, I called to cancel the interview I had tentatively set up. 6. Bradley University, Peoria, Illinois. June 8, 1994. My, was I getting depressed....almost 25 years of formal education, and no job prospects. It was difficult at best to keep going, to say the least. The whole experience was eating away at the very core of my being...my pride, you name it. My family, albeit supportive, hadn't any idea why it could be so difficult. But, I quickly snapped out of the doldrums with a phone call from the dept. chair at Bradley that afternoon. Again, life! Another possibility....oh, whatever you do, don't screw it up!! More calls...one on the 13th, and another on the 14th. I went and interviewed on the 15th ( a Wed.) and wouldn't you know, the morning I was leaving, I had to endure a flat tire! Sometimes I'd swear, if it weren't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all! So I interviewed, and gave a half-hour presentation on my thesis work. All went well, and I received an informal offer from the chair on the 20th. The Dean called and made it official on the 22nd, and I accepted by phone on the 24th. I almost forgot! It was a one-year, temporary assistant professor- ship. As long as I'm getting rank and salary, that's about all I could have hoped for, I figured. I signed a formal contract and mailed it in on the first of July. Yippee! The search is over! Well, at least until October.... 7. Valley City State University, Valley City, North Dakota. Wait, there's still more. Read on, if I haven't bored you to tears yet! On 6/21, I received a top 5 call. On the 23rd, I got a rejection call. Geez, that was quick! 8. Woodbury University, Burbank, CA. Still more...wouldn't you know, another call! A phone interview on 6/22. Now you can see why I was being a bit coy with the Dean at Bradley.... I had other irons in the fire! The phone interview went swimmingly, maybe because I was pumped up that I had an offer already on the table. They called again later that day, saying they'd pay all my expenses to fly me out to give me the once-over. Quandry time!! The Dean gave me a few hours, yes, hours to think over my plight. I had been up-front about the offer from Bradley, and she asked me if I was a gambler. Not in this life, at least, as I eschewed the opportunity to see television city, up close and personal! I chickened out (tell me everyone, did I screw up- opinions welcome!) and stuck with the one-year deal as I thought it would be best for me in the long run. The jury's still out on it!! 9. Metropolitan State University, Minneapolis, MN. I got a call to set up a phone interview on the 10th of July. By this time, it was all academic (pun intended!!). Addendum: Missouri Valley College p.o.-ed me a tad.... they sent me a top 5 rejection letter, never having called me to give me their litmus test over the phone. Gimme a chance, guys!! So that's the story. Not at all what I expected, though looking back on it, I'm not sure what I expected! Along the way, there were a few positions which I could have applied for, and for some reason did not....somewhere along the way I reached a saturation point. I was annoyed by a number of schools which never acknowledged receipt of my application materials. I don't have any hard numbers on that, but it's around 25% of the schools to which I applied. I know budgets are tight, people, but at least send a rejection postcard if you're not interested. It's tough enough as it is!! Kevin Charlwood kec1@bradley.bradley.edu _______________________________________________________________ Item #6: WORKSHOPS FOR WOMEN GRADUATE STUDENTS AND POSTDOCTORAL MATHEMATICIANS WORKSHOPS FOR WOMEN GRADUATE STUDENTS AND POSTDOCTORAL MATHEMATICIANS supported by the National Science Foundation, the Office of Naval Research and the Association for Women in Mathematics Over the past five years, the Association for Women in Mathematics, with funding from the National Science Foundation and the Office of Naval Research, has held a series of workshops for women graduate students and postdoctoral mathematicians (postdocs) in conjunction with major mathematics meetings. WHEN: The NEXT WORKSHOP in the series will be held in conjunction with the AMS-MAA Joint Mathematics Meeting in San Francisco, January 4-7, 1995. The San Francisco workshop will be held on Saturday, January 7, 1995. WORKSHOP: We invite graduate students to present posters on their thesis problem and postdocs to present talks on their research. AWM will offer funding for travel and 2-days subsistence for up to ten women graduate students and ten women postdocs to participate in the workshop. Participants will have the opportunity to present and discuss their research and to meet with other women mathematicians at all stages of their careers. The workshop will also include a panel discussion on issues of career development, a luncheon, and a dinner banquet. All mathematicians (female and male) are invited to attend the entire program even though only twenty women will be funded. Departments are urged to help graduate students and postdocs obtain some institutional support to attend the workshop and the meetings which follow. ELIGIBILITY: To be eligible for funding, GRADUATE STUDENTS must have begun work on a thesis problem; POSTDOCS must have received their Ph.D. within approximately the last five years. All non-U.S. citizens must have a current U.S. address. All applications should include a curriculum vitae and a concise description of research; graduate students should include a letter of recommendation from their thesis advisor. Nominations by other mathematicians (accompanied by the information described above) are also valuable for the selection committee. Send ***FIVE*** copies of the application materials to: Workshop Selection Committee Association for Women in Mathematics 4114 Computer & Space Sciences Building University of Maryland College Park, Maryland 20742-2461 PHONE: 301-405-7892 E-MAIL: awm@math.umd.edu SAN FRANCISCO APPLICATION DEADLINE: OCTOBER 15, 1994 _______________________________________________________________ Item #7 Closing Credits The Young Mathematicians' Network is administered by: Charles Yeomans cyeomans@s.ms.uky.edu Mark Winstead mwwinst@gcr.com Frank Sottile sottile@math.toronto.edu Vic Perera vperera@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Franklin Mendivil mendivil@math.gatech.edu Kevin Madigan madigan@math.nwu.edu Steve Kennedy skennedy@mathcs.carleton.edu Matt Hudelson hudelson@math.washington.edu Bob Dobrow dobrow@cam.nist.gov Lyle Cochran 74443.3055@compuserve.com Neil Calkin calkin@math.gatech.edu Wendy Brunzie brunzie@mathfs.math.montana.edu Curtis Bennett cbennet@andy.bgsu.edu Frank Arlinghaus frank@math.ysu.edu Jeff Adams adams@bright.uoregon.edu Edward Aboufadel aboufade@scus1.ctstateu.edu _______________________________________________________________ End of Journal -- Next week: The Discussion Continues